November 26, 2007

Odds Are, They Don't Get It (CA)

Redeeming "Pascal's wager"...


A few months ago, in a small article on washingtonpost.com, Sam Harris did what he does best. In typical fashion, Harris gave the impression that he clearly understood something related to religion. As with most of Harris’ work on religion, this is exactly that: an impression, and nothing more. Harris has a view of Pascal’s wager that is unsophisticated and careless. In his defense, so to speak, that’s not an uncommon problem. Pascal’s infamous statement on the “odds” behind Christian faith is more misunderstood, considering its renown, than any other philosophical statement in history. Both believers and non-believers misinterpret Pascal’s real point. Supporters miss the major limitations of the wager, and critics miss the deliberately narrow scope of it. Harris, as usual, is separated from the ignorant anti-Christians only by eloquence, not wisdom.

My intention here is not just to refute Harris. That’s more of a means to an end. My real purpose is to show that Pascal’s wager is neither a slam-dunk argument for belief in Christ, nor a worthless and meaningless platitude. Taking a slightly different view of Pascal’s idea, actually, makes a very useful point for the purposes of apologetics. As this is the first of a three-post discussion, I’m just going to correct some misunderstandings about Pascal’s wager, using Harris’ article as an example of what not to do, and then create a tie-in to the ultimate idea, which will be fully revealed in the third post.


In condensed form, Pascal’s wager actually says the following, presented in a semi-syllogistic form. Note that “God” here refers to the God of Christianity:

  1. Everyone must wager by either believing in God, or not believing in God. There are no neutral choices.
  2. Pure reason cannot decide either for or against the existence of God.
  3. It is equally likely that God exists, or no god exists.
  4. Therefore, we should decide which side to pursue on the basis of “happiness”.

  5. So...

  6. If you choose belief in God, and are right, you gain infinite happiness. If you are wrong, you neither gain nor lose anything.
  7. If you choose to reject God, and you are right, you neither gain nor lose anything. If you are wrong, you suffer infinite loss.
  8. Therefore, belief in God represents the “safe bet”; ultimately, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

This is not how Pascal is generally represented. Condensing the wager down much more than above tends to warp both the scope and force of the statement. This is not – I repeat, not – an argument for the existence of God. Pascal tackles the question of God’s existence in other places. The wager is meant to highlight two ideas: the importance of the question of God’s existence, and the practicality of belief in God. Obviously, there are those who will disagree with some assumptions of the wager.

In his article, Harris mentions two other men who invoke Pascal; whether they were wrong in their usage is not in question here, since Harris decides to make his own clumsy attempt to interpret it. In brief, Harris blows his analysis of Pascal on several major points:

First, Harris over-generalizes Pascal by stating that the wager suggests that “religious believers”, in general, are the safe bettors. Pascal’s wager is very narrowly specified towards Christian believers. Whenever Harris invokes problems with other religions in this discussion, he’s putting words in Pascal’s mouth, and creating problems where none existed.

Second, while making unrelated criticisms of other religions, and bleating the tired mantra of the New Atheists - “all religion is pure evil, and does nothing but hurt the world” - Harris actually turns the wager inside out. Pascal’s wager is personal, not corporate. Pascal is referring to eternal, infinite personal gain, or eternal, infinite personal loss based on one’s choice regarding God. He is not, as Harris seems to think, making any particular claims about the value of religion to society.

Harris smugly says that wager has “an undeserved air of profundity.” Ironic, since I’d say the same thing about Harris’ entire body of work. Setting that aside, however, Harris is on the verge of recognizing that the wager is not the sledgehammer some think it is, yet was never intended to be. He goes wrong when he suggests that the wager could be applied to any religion, and therefore is invalid. You can see how juvenile and silly Harris gets when he suggests that the wager could even be used to argue for reading one newspaper over another. Pascal’s wager suggests a rational “stalemate” of Christianity vs atheism, and the consequences of belief vs. disbelief in Christianity. Lacking those two ideas, it’s no longer Pascal’s wager.

The crowning pratfall of Harris’ analysis, though, is this statement: “But the greatest problem with the wager—and it is a problem that infects religious thinking generally—is its suggestion that a rational person can knowingly will himself to believe a proposition for which he has no evidence.” This combination of bad interpretation of Pascal and the most glaringly, blatantly, irritatingly false criticism of religion is enough to turn my stomach. Pascal was not suggesting a person ignore reason – he invokes the idea of rationality in the wager itself. The wager is not a justification for self-deception, it’s an effort to show that the question of God is worth considering. For those leaning either way, it provides a logical incentive to look closely at Christianity.

Harris drags in the “lack of evidence” excuse, when the wager specifically presumes that evidence and reason alone cannot decide the issue. Pascal recognizes an important idea, which is that belief is indeed, ultimately, a consequence of choice. Harris, like most New Atheists, wants to think that a person has no choice what to believe – a determinism of opinion, so to speak. My experience indicates that any person claiming to reject God for purely intellectual reasons is a liar.

No, that was not a typo. Every atheist who says that they reject the idea of God entirely, or even primarily, for rational, intellectual reasons is being dishonest. Aldous Huxley was honest enough to admit that his atheism was motivated first by a desire for sexual and political freedom, and he found rational arguments to support that view. Not all atheists are as honest as Huxley, but at least a good portion admit that their atheism is primarily an emotional or personal rejection, not a coldly logical response.

Harris resounds another hypocritical chorus here: “Beliefs are not like clothing: comfort, utility, and attractiveness cannot be one’s conscious criteria for acquiring them.” Since most of Harris’ arguments against Christian beliefs are based on his personal opinion that they are uncomfortable, useless, and unattractive, I’m surprised he could write that sentence without laughing at himself. Pascal is not making any such argument, per se. Pascal is really saying that, from an eternal perspective, the believer has everything to gain and nothing to lose. So, a rational person wavering between belief and disbelief has good reasons to choose belief.

Believers and unbelievers alike misrepresent Pascal. The wager is not a proof of God’s existence in any way, shape, or form. Pascal is stating that the question of God’s existence is one without neutral choices, and that choice has important consequences. The loss-gain difference between belief and disbelief makes belief an option with considerable practical value. As C.S. Lewis famously said about Christianity, “The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.”

There are flaws in the wager, of course. Pascal automatically dismisses all other religions, considering the choice to be purely between atheism and Christianity. He considers these two choices equally likely, which almost everyone disagrees with in one direction or the other. Pascal considers only eternal consequences, though I see this as the point of the argument. In truth, true believers find everything in this life that non-believers say they want: community, peace, morality, intellectual fulfillment, hope, self-worth, and purpose. Again quoting Lewis,
“All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."

Critics of the wager often forget that he’s talking about Christianity in particular. Any criticisms that a god might reward sincerity over belief, or that rewards might not be eternal, or that a god might prefer unbelief, are not in keeping with the Christian character of the wager. Pascal also never mentions hell, making the common objection that Pascal’s wager is an appeal to fear incorrect.

With the idea that Christians have “nothing to lose in this life, and everything to gain in the next”, Pascal’s wager is best used as a means to refute the notion that Christians are selling themselves short in this life. In fact, it creates an interesting idea, one that leads us towards the ultimate point of this discussion:

A Christian has much to gain – in this life, in this world – by believing in Christianity. This considers those things prohibited by Christianity to be detrimental, not positive, to a fulfilled life. It could be said that the committed Christian life is one worth living, regardless of whether there is a God or not. Every deep desire of humanity can be found in some legitimate way in Christianity; so, if oblivion awaits us in the end, we’ve lost nothing. This makes Christian belief worthwhile independent of its truth value.

Atheism, on the other hand, is not worthwhile to belief if it’s false, due to the profound loss risked. Even more so, really living as if there is no God results in much less happiness than living otherwise, as history has shown. It could be said that the atheistic life is not worth living, even if it was true (and the fact that atheists never live out the consequences of that belief supports this). There is no ultimate good to be gained from it.

Christianity has value, even if false. Atheism has no value, even if true. Consider these two ideas as we move forward towards the next related point, naturalism and free will, in Thursday’s post.

22 comments:

Ron said...

Hey MM--

Interesting post. A little shrill, perhaps, but interesting nonetheless.

Pascal's wager, as you describe it, fails on several counts. First, it says that if atheism turns out to be right after all, then the Christian has lost nothing. I disagree with that. Christianity is a very mystical, guilt-driven view of the world. The Christian has spent his life believing he is a loathsome, vile creature who's going to escape a punishment he richly deserves only because God will cut him some slack in the hereafter, when all along he didn't have to. Has the person who has based his life on a false premise lost anything? Sure he has.

Secondly, Pascal's Wager--as you describe it--misrepresents the choices that every person faces when pondering whether or not to believe in God, and is useless as a decision-making tool for that reason. The choices aren't limited to atheism or Christianity. In reality, the choices are between atheism and an endless stream of different Gods, all claiming to be the One True God, and many threatening those who disbelieve with eternal damnation. Therefore, Pascal's Wager is worse than useless as a practical tool if it turns out that Allah is the real God after all.

But as Harris said, the main flaw with PW is that thinking people don't base their belief systems on what is safe. They base them on what seems likely to be true. If someone tries to convince me that I will go to hell if I don't believe there's a purple cow orbiting Jupiter, it doesn't matter how vivid or scary his description of purple cow hell is.

And as for "My experience indicates that any person claiming to reject God for purely intellectual reasons is a liar"

Well, if it makes you feel safer to believe that, that's your business.

MedicineMan said...

“Pascal's wager, as you describe it, fails on several counts.”

It only fails if it’s supposed to be a proof of something. It’s not. It’s a reason to take the question seriously.

“First, it says that if atheism turns out to be right after all, then the Christian has lost nothing. I disagree with that. Christianity is…”

I could disagree with your description of Christian self-loathing, but it’d be a waste of time. I can just as easily say that the atheist lives life believing that nothing he does has any ultimate meaning, nothing has ultimate value, and there is no hope, no justice, and no purpose. Of course, he can choose to delude himself into believing differently up to the point where he disappears into oblivion. What has the Christian lost by living with an internally consistent sense of hope, meaning, and value? Both wind up as nothing, but at least the Christian lives with something. That was part of the point of the post, which you must have missed.

And, once we're in oblivion, how is the Christian behind the atheist at all? Aren't we both non-existent?

“The choices aren't limited to atheism or Christianity.”

A point that I clearly stated. Did you skip that part?

“But as Harris said, the main flaw with PW is that thinking people don't base their belief systems on what is safe. They base them on what seems likely to be true.”

No, Harris said “comfort, utility, and attractiveness cannot be one’s conscious criteria for acquiring (beliefs).” That’s not Pascal’s point – those are counters to the “Christians lose too much” argument, not proofs of anything. My point is that it’s incredibly hypocritical of Harris to say this. As a naturalist, people like Harris (and Dawkins, and Dennett, and such) can’t logically believe in purpose – so he chooses to believe in it only because it’s comfortable and useful. He can’t rationally believe in free will – so he chooses to believe in it only because it’s comfortable and useful. He can’t rationally believe in meaning – so he chooses to believe in it only because it’s comfortable and useful. Harris, the atheist, is the one choosing beliefs purely on the basis of preference. And, he does so while completely ignoring that fact that emotion does play a role in how people make their choices.

“And as for ‘My experience indicates that any person claiming to reject God for purely intellectual reasons is a liar.’ Well, if it makes you feel safer to believe that, that's your business.”

It doesn’t make me feel safer, it makes me feel sadder. The statement says what it says. Of the legions of atheists I’ve talked to, interacted with, read, or heard of, I’ve never encountered one who could truthfully say that their rejection of God was purely, absolutely, and totally intellectual. If they say so, they’re being dishonest at least to me, and probably to themselves.

Are you claiming to be an exception? You indicated that you wouldn’t worship God even if I could prove He was real, and accompanied that with some moral outrage about aspects of God you dislike. Are you going to say that your atheism is purely rational?

Ron said...

Hi again MM--

Thanks for the courtesy of replying.

"It only fails if it’s supposed to be a proof of something"

No, it fails if it tries to accomplish something and doesn't do it. PW is used by Christian Apologeticists, or ChrAp for short, as 'evidence' that belief in Jehovah is a more reasonable choice than non-belief, and it isn't, for the reasons already offered.

In fact, I'll offer one more. What PW is claiming is that it is better to give up the right to live as you see fit in this life in order to avoid losing bigtime in the hereafter.

In actual fact, the reverse is true: It is stupid to give up such a right--your 'agency', so to speak--in this life for a highly tenuous reward in the hereafter.

You're giving up what is for what might be, which is probably not such a good idea as a general rule. PW is based on a flawed premise to start with.

Anonymous said...

MM--

I hit the 'publish' button when I meant to hit the 'preview' button. Please change "Apologeticists", whatever that is, to "Apologists".

Sorry about that.

MedicineMan said...

Ron,

Sorry, but I don't have the ability to edit comments. I can delete those that are so deserving, but I wouldn't choose to edit comments even if I could.

"It is stupid to give up such a right--your 'agency', so to speak--in this life for a highly tenuous reward in the hereafter.

You're giving up what is for what might be, which is probably not such a good idea as a general rule."


Then you've missed the force of the suggestion in Pascal's Wager. According to your own beliefs, both the Christian and the Atheist get the same thing in the end - oblivion. What we gain or lose during life won't be useful, important, or remembered after we die. If you're right, then it makes no difference what happens during life, it can't affect me when I'm dissolved.

Your remark isn't even consistent with the worldview you claim to hold. At worst, all you can do is claim that Christians gain no advantage; you can't logically claim that atheists come out ahead in an afterlife of nothingness.

And, the idea of "giving up" anything is purely subjective. A Christian lifestyle gains community, peace, hope, and purpose, all consistent and compatible. We're not giving up our free will. As Christ said, Christians have an "abundant" life. Atheism cannot offer those things without self-delusion.

A Christian lifestyle does involve some sacrifices; but those are considered beneficial by Christians. Drunkenness? I'm also giving up hangovers, drunken stupidity, and addiction. Promiscuity? I'm also giving up STDs and illegitimate pregnancies. And so on and so forth; the idea shouldn't be too hard to see.

The assertion that Atheists don't have any existential drawbacks to their worldview is as silly as the assertion that they don't have any serious questions to answer in regards to it.

Ron said...

MM--

Thanks again for your reply. I've always been interested in apologetics/counter-apologetics.

"Sorry, but I don't have the ability to edit comments"

That's okay. I guess I'll just have to actually look at which buttons I click on. [sigh]

" What we gain or lose during life won't be useful, important, or remembered after we die. If you're right, then it makes no difference what happens during life, it can't affect me when I'm dissolved. "

This really is typical of the strange thinking Christians engage in. 'Who cares what kind of life I lead right now if I'm just going to dissolve someday?'

All I can say--as an atheist--is: If that's your view of what the atheist worldview is like, then stay an evangelical. As for me, I'll try to concentrate on what happens before I dissolve, and I'll leave what happens after I dissolve for you theologians to worry about. I will not trade in my wits for highly speculative security promises [redeemable after you die], thank you very much. I need to hang on to the few I have left.

Put another way: I'm not long on this earth. I refuse to spend the few years I'm here believing the first woman came from a rib. You don't have a problem believing things like that? Well, okay.

MedicineMan said...

Ron,

"I've always been interested in apologetics/counter-apologetics."

No offense, but if you think a joke like "ChrAp" fits into a discussion like this, then your interest can't be a particularly mature one.

"This really is typical of the strange thinking Christians engage in. 'Who cares what kind of life I lead right now if I'm just going to dissolve someday?'"

You seem to be missing the point that Christians don't think this. We think it matters how you live, and we have a consistent reasoning behind it.

It's the atheist who has strange thinking. You have to say, rationally, that life is meaningless and purposeless; meanwhile you live and act as though that was not true. Then you have the nerve to criticize religionists for being irrational.

As it pertains to Pascal, I can see why you don't get the point he was making. The Atheist has no edge over the Christian, because, by the Atheist's own reasoning, we both end up the same after death.

"I refuse to spend the few years I'm here..."

That's all well and good, since it's completely a matter of subjective preference (see my point about hangovers and STDs); the point is that you cannot claim, according to your own beliefs, that atheists wind up better off than Christians.

One of the values of Pascal's Wager is there; that the atheist cannot claim any ultimate advantage.

Ron said...

MM--

"No offense, but if you think a joke like "ChrAp" fits into a discussion like this, then your interest can't be a particularly mature one."

Hnhhhh. He said "ChrAp".

" You seem to be missing the point that Christians don't think this. We think it matters how you live, and we have a consistent reasoning behind it."

Actually, truth be told, nobody lives that way (in some kind of 'void'). Why keep bringing it up? It's all a bit shifty, if you don't mind my sayin'.

" It's the atheist who has strange thinking. You have to say, rationally, that life is meaningless and purposeless; meanwhile you live and act as though that was not true. Then you have the nerve to criticize religionists for being irrational."

Spare me. You believe in invisible beings. Not just one, either. Lots of them. Huh, Christian?

MedicineMan said...

"Actually, truth be told, nobody lives that way (in some kind of 'void')."

Yes, which is my point.

"Why keep bringing it up?"

Because I have a consistent, rational basis for my belief in things like purpose and meaning. Atheists do not. This means that atheists who believe in, or live out a belief in, things like free will, meaning, or purpose are being self-delusional.

"It's all a bit shifty, if you don't mind my sayin'."

I don't mind at all, because you're right. Accusing me of being irrational for belief in the supernatural is very shifty; since you don't have a rational basis to believe what you do. At least my own beliefs support my choice to live with purpose and meaning. Yours do not.

"Spare me..."

As I said, I have a rational and consistent view of these ideas. You have middle-school level jokes , an inconsistent and irrational view, and an eye-rolling attitude. So sparing you is sparing myself, I guess.

Ron said...

"This means that atheists who believe in, or live out a belief in, things like free will, meaning, or purpose are being self-delusional."

Self-delusional? Okay, let's talk about self-delusional for a minute.
Question: A significant portion of the US population believes the earth is roughly 6,000 years old, in spite of abundant evidence to the contrary. These people fall mostly into the demographic of either (a) evangelicals or (b) atheists. Which one would you choose? Which one do you think most people would choose?

I find it ironic that a group of people who share such a rational, logical worldview can come to believe so many stupid things--like creationism or a 6000 year old earth, for instance. Why do you suppose that is?

MedicineMan said...

Ron,

But…but…but…some Christians believe some irrational things!!! Yes, and so do some atheists. Don’t try to play the “I know you are, but what am I” game with this idea, because it’s not going to work. Christians can consistently live out their beliefs; that doesn’t guarantee factual accuracy in all cases. Atheists can’t, and don’t, actually live consistently with what they believe. My beliefs about the universe match my actions. Yours do not.

”Self-delusional? Okay, let's talk about self-delusional for a minute. Question: A significant portion of the US population believes…”

In UFOs? 9/11 conspiracy theories? That their sports team has a chance to win the pennant? Abiogenesis? Naturalistic free will? How about meaning? The sanctity of life? That adultery is more than just “not preferable”? Yes, some people believe strange things. That doesn’t invalidate their entire worldview, especially when the errant belief is not an inseparable part of that worldview.

I don’t think you want to put yourself into the position of claiming that there are no atheists who hold any irrational beliefs. For instance, a lot of atheists denied the Big Bang Theory, despite evidence supporting it, because of the religious implications. That has nothing to do with the rationality or truth of either Christianity or Atheism.

Young-earth creationism is not an immutable part of Christianity. And yet, even those who believe in it do so consistently with their basic assumptions about the universe. Once you start with the assumption (that can neither be proven or disproven) that ‘God created’, those things are at least consistent, if not factually accurate. You can change a young-earth creationist’s mind about that specific idea using logic, reason and facts – and his worldview can remain intact. You can’t say that meaning or purpose are real without destroying the atheistic worldview; yet, as you say, atheists live with a sense of meaning, purpose, and so on.

You’re either missing or deliberately evading the point – that an atheist can’t live out belief in purpose, free will, or meaning without being self-deceptive. You can’t actually live out your beliefs, because according to your worldview, such things do not actually exist. As you yourself said: “no one really lives that way”. Christians, on the other hand, can live out their beliefs consistently.

You're certainly not making any headway disputing the idea that atheists "live out" some things they know are not real. Isn’t it the ultimate irrationality to deliberately live according to something you don’t actually believe is true?

I find it ironic that a group of people who claim to share such a rational, logical worldview can come to believe in so many stupid things – like free will, meaning, justice, or right or wrong, for instance. Why do you suppose that is?

Ron said...

But…but…but…some Christians believe some irrational things!!! Yes, and so do some atheists.

BZZZZT!

[Atheist pauses match; slippery floor. ]

Regardless of merits of atheism, the existence of actual examples of Christian stupidity is now undisputed, and stupid worldviews are to be avoided. GM has been cut.

Point to atheists. Resume match.

I wasn't just saying Christians believe irrational things. Oh, no.

I was saying they believe some stupid things. As a group. If I convert to this enlightened, logical society of believers such as you describe, the statistical chances that I will reject the well-established age of the planet at ~4 1/2 billion yrs old and come to believe the planet is ~6000 yrs old go up. Waaaaaay up. And note also--Outside of this smiling, weaving, praying body of rapture bait, belief in a 6000yr old earth virtually vanishes, at least in our society. I think there's a reason for that: Christianity (or some versions of it, at any rate) is inherently stupid.

All those other things you mentioned--free will, the meaning of life, etc are hot topics of discussion and are not established in one way or another. With the age of the earth, there's absolutely no question. Evangelical Christians are wrong about the age of the earth. But it gets worse--they're wrong by a factor of ~800,000 or so.

It's one thing to be wrong. It's beyond wrong when you're wrong by a factor of ~800,000. I'm sorry, there's just no nice way to say it. Anyone that believes the earth is only 6000 yrs old is officially stupid. And it's a fairly common belief among the saved.

MedicineMan said...

My experience has taught me that lame attempts at humor are often a sign that someone has no real answer; they just try to be funny instead of intelligent.

I was calling out my fellow Christians for giving in to errant beleifs long before you graced this blog with your presence, and long before I started this blog. You're not delivering some grand revelation by pointing out that some believers think strange things. Nor did you try to argue that atheists are just as prone to "stupid" beliefs as anyone else.

You're either deliberately missing or incapable of understanding the force of my point. Young-earth creationists can be reasoned with, using logic and facts, to change their minds, and their Christian worldview remains intact. They can live consistently within their beliefs.

Atheists, such as yourself, cannot say the same. You live according to principles that you do not actually believe are true. More to the point, your worldview will not allow you to believe they are true, without deliberate irrationality.

Nice try, shrugging those off as "hot topics...not decided," but that's evasion, not explanation. Especially when the topics you criticized believers for are the subject of much discussion within Christian circles. It's also evasive to say "regardless of the merits of atheism..." when that's largely the point. So is "when you're wrong by a factor of 800,000..." when one could argue atheistic views of free will and purpose are infinitely wrong. Or that atheistic science used to believe the universe was infintiely old, not billions of years. What's the error factor there?

I know you put a LOT of emotional and intellectual weight behind what the majority thinks, so I understand why appeals to popularity come up so often in your arguments. You think that if most of group A says they believe in idea B, then the core beliefs of group A must demand this. Unfortunately, I'm not in the same camp. If 99.99% of the world believed something factually incorrect, it's still wrong, and I know full well that some errant, popular beliefs held by Christians are not inescapable parts of their worldview.

You can't defend the argument that my worldview matches the way I live, and yours doesn't. If you could, you would have, but you can't. So, you brush that aside and try to be funny instead of honest. If you want to get to that kind of bluntness, I think what you believe is "stupid", from a rational standpoint.

Naturalistic Atheism does not allow for free will. It does not allow for meaning, or purpose, or justice. Nor objective morality. I know you disagree, and I know you're already making an appeal to "what most people think" or some such. Yet, you're the one who said that Atheists don't live as though they thought their lives were meaningless, purposeless, hopeless, determined molecular interactions doomed to oblivion.

That's funny, too. You criticized Christianity because young-earth was a common belief in that group. Yet, the percentage of atheists who live out a belief in nihilism is almost zero, while rational atheists say that life is ultimately meaningless and purposeless. I guess if I joined your group, the statistical chances of me having to live in either self-delusion or hopeless despair are close to 100%.

You don't live out the beliefs you claim to hold, but you feel the need to criticize others for being "irrational". That's pretty "stupid".

I could get into the rest of the blunders you made just in the last post, but you know my philosophy about wasting my time. I'll discuss anything at any time with someone rational and willing to take an honest look at things. You are neither.

If you want to be thoughtful, we can keep talking about this, to a point. If you want to be cute, try open-mic night at a comedy club.

Ron said...

I was calling out my fellow Christians for giving in to errant beleifs long before you graced this blog with your presence, and long before I started this blog.

Sounds like a big job. You've got your work cut out for you. No wonder you're always looking at your watch.

Young-earth creationists can be reasoned with, using logic and facts, to change their minds, and their Christian worldview remains intact. They can live consistently within their beliefs.

Now there's a description of YECs you don't read very often.
I've previously pointed out to you that Answers In Genesis claims scriptural authority for a literal 6-day creation and young earth. Surely you are aware of this. They further claim that a literal Genesis account is doctrinally necessary. So--How much headway are you making to convince them they are scripturally 'errant'? You do think they're 'errant', don't you?

Maybe Answers in Genesis doesn't know how to read the Bible either.

Atheists, such as yourself, cannot say the same. You live according to principles that you do not actually believe are true. More to the point, your worldview will not allow you to believe they are true, without deliberate irrationality.

Straw-man. Define morality in such a way that it cannot exist independent of God, and then say this means that atheists themselves admit they are immoral, since they reject God. That's about as honest as defining reality as something that cannot exist outside of God, and then claim atheists themselves concede they are irrational. It's inaccurate and a deliberate distortion of atheist beliefs, and that's been pointed out to you before.

Atheism means 'without God' and that's all it means. All the rest of the baggage you try to hang on to atheism--free will, morality and the rest--is little more than a self-serving attempt to stack the deck in your favor.

You don't live out the beliefs you claim to hold, but you feel the need to criticize others for being "irrational". That's pretty "stupid".

The underlying theme of your post--indeed, your whole blog--is to try to make the case that the rules of logic and sweet reason lead inexorably to the literal existence of the mystical, which I consider to be false on its face. But I'll play along: What are the logical steps you went through to conclude that one day you and every other Christian that ever lived will begin to float up into the sky like a balloon? How do you justify such a belief as being logical, rational or reasonable?

I guess if I joined your group, the statistical chances of me having to live in either self-delusion or hopeless despair are close to 100%.

You weren't invited.

You haven't proven the existence of God. You've proven the existence of pedantry.

MedicineMan said...

” Sounds like a big job. You've got your work cut out for you.”

Yes. Not nearly so big a job as trying to help the smugly self-assured understand that they’re not as rational as they think they are, but a big job all the same.

I hate to burst your bubble, but I'm careful with my time because I don't think you really have any interest in learning anything. So, your opinion is pretty much irrelevant to me, and I have better things to do than spend hours typing at you. That being said, it's worth a little of my time to keep ideas in mind for genuinely worthwhile discussions, or genuinely worthy opponents.

” I've previously pointed out to you that Answers In Genesis…”

Yes, a well-known Christian group holds that belief. Are you sliding towards another appeal to popularity? Yes, I think they’re errant in their belief that the universe is only 6,000 years old. If you’re suggesting that YEC are inherently irrational, but aren’t ready to apply that to atheists, then you’re not even trying to make a point, you’re just stamping your feet and saying “but…but…but…Christians!”

”Straw man…” Really? I know we’ve disagreed about morality in the past, and we’ve all but concluded that you and I cannot and will not agree on the basis of it. So I note with emphasis that you didn’t try to defend purpose, meaning, or justice. You have indicated that you believe that life is ultimately meaningless, ultimately purposeless, and so forth. Yet, you don’t live that way, by your own admission. This is true for the majority of atheists, as you also stated. Where is the straw man there?

Are you not guilty of an attempted straw man for bringing up Answers in Genesis? I am not a part of that group, and do not agree with them. I am criticizing the irrationality of your belief; you are trying to tie me to a group I am not involved with.


”…and then claim atheists themselves concede they are irrational.”

When it comes to meaning, purpose, and determinism, Richard Dawkins and other atheists have done this exact thing. They admit that it’s irrational. How is that then a distortion?

”Atheism means 'without God' and that's all it means. All the rest of the baggage you try to hang on to atheism--free will, morality and the rest--is little more than a self-serving attempt to stack the deck in your favor.

I don’t think you actually believe that. Perhaps you do, but I doubt it. If you do, then your approach to these issues is either incredibly shallow, cravenly dishonest, or both. What you said there makes as much sense as saying, “Anarchist just means ‘without government’ and that’s all it means. All the baggage you try to attach is self-serving…” There are major implications attached to the idea of “no government.” There are major implications attached to the idea of “no God.” If you truly believe that’s not the case, then you truly haven’t got a clue.

”The underlying theme of your post--indeed, your whole blog--is to try to make the case that the rules of logic and sweet reason lead inexorably to the literal existence of the mystical…

Not the mystical, the truth – which happens to involve God.

”But I'll play along…”

No, that’s not playing along, it’s another sign of poor logical ability. You know Washington crossed the Delaware because of recorded history. You know that rust is iron oxide because of chemistry. You know the sun will rise tomorrow because of experience. None of those things are purely logical, synthetic a priori facts. Believing those highly specific things are true does not have to be, and actually cannot be, purely the end result of some logical process. You have to apply rationality to facts.

The same is true with the rapture. Belief in aspects of Christianity are not, and do not have to be, drummed up out of nowhere. Scripture can be supported sufficiently to trust what it says about things that have not yet happened.

”You weren't invited.”

And there’s the crux if it. I don’t reject you because of a difference of opinion. There are times that I can’t waste my time arguing with a wooden post, of course, but I’m willing to provide some direction for your thoughts. I’d welcome you happily as a believer whether we agreed on most things or not. Sadly, you seem to have a different approach.

“You haven't proven the existence of God. You've proven the existence of pedantry.”

Not to be pedantic yet again, but… Coming from you, I’d have to take that as a compliment – if I thought you really knew what that word meant. If you’re implying that I’m making an overt, overly detailed ‘show’ of what I know (pedantry), then you’re implicitly implying that I’m right. Since I’m pretty sure you’re not suggesting that, I’ll assume you meant something else.

For what it’s worth, you still haven’t tried to defend the discrepancy between what you believe and how you live. I could say you haven’t proven the non-existence of God, you’ve proven the non-existence of rational naturalism.

Ron said...

When it comes right down to it, my primary objection to your stance on apologetics is simply this:

If your worldview makes the prediction that you will one day soar into the clouds like a hawk, then you have little room to criticize anybody else's worldview for being self-delusional or illogical.

We can argue back and forth all day long whether atheism is internally consistent or not. But it is undisputed that as an idea, Christianity is weird. You have to suspend a lot of disbelief to be a Christian. Atheists don't believe the first woman came from a rib. Christians do.

" There are major implications attached to the idea of “no God.” If you truly believe that’s not the case, then you truly haven’t got a clue."

Yes there are. And they are entirely separate from the question of whether God actually exists or not. God either exists or he doesn't. Everything else is secondary. Atheism addresses that and that alone. All the rest of it--whether justice is an objective reality or merely a human construct, for instance, is in essence irrelevant (at least from any practical standpoint). Would there still be meaning to life the day after an asteroid slams into the earth? The correct answer isn't "yes" or "no". The correct answer is "who cares?"

Claims require proof, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
To say that one day you will float skyward like a kite is an extraordinary claim. You don't have anything even approaching extraordinary proof.

”You weren't invited.”

And there’s the crux if it. I don’t reject you because of a difference of opinion.


I didn't reject you. I didn't invite you because you seem happy enough as a born-again Christian.
I'm not on a recruiting drive.

MedicineMan said...

”When it comes right down to it, my primary objection to your stance on apologetics is simply this:”

And, what you say after this doesn’t have enough connecting thought behind it to be valid. How is that self-delusional or illogical? It’s based on an evidence-and-logic-driven trust in what the Bible says. My stance is that fact, reason, and thoughtful, objective analysis should be foremost in any philosophy. Do you disagree? I expect Atheists and Christians alike to be rational and logical. If you don’t like being called out on the carpet for being irrational, find somewhere else to display that irrationality.

”If your worldview makes the prediction that you will one day soar into the clouds like a hawk, then you have little room to criticize anybody else's worldview for being self-delusional or illogical.”

Not if it really will happen. And, when your worldview is overtly self-delusional I have plenty of cause to say so.

”We can argue back and forth all day long whether atheism is internally consistent or not.

It shouldn’t take that long. It is internally inconsistent, and atheists know it.

”But it is undisputed that as an idea, Christianity is weird.

Spoken like a mature and experienced philosopher. Quantum physics is “weird”, abnormal psychology is “weird”. Just because you think something is strange has nothing to do with its truth value.

”You have to suspend a lot of disbelief to be a Christian.

Completely untrue. We have rational, consistent answers to real-world questions. And, as I’ve said for about the hundredth time (that’s a figure of speech – I know skeptics have trouble with that) an atheist essentially has to “suspend disbelief” when they treat anything as meaningful, “unjust”, or “tragic”. Your worldview says those ideas don’t really exist.

Christian’s didn’t believe that the universe was eternal. Atheists did. Christians don’t believe that life is meaningless. Atheists do (but they act otherwise). You can try to dodge the problems, but apparently you can’t answer them.

”Yes there are (implications). And they are entirely separate from the question of whether God actually exists or not.”

The implications are not attached to the truth value? What kind of perverse logic is that? If Atheism is true, it necessarily means some very important things about free will, purpose, and morality. It’s not true or untrue as a result of the implications, of course, but you can’t separate the implications from the idea.

”God either exists or he doesn't. Everything else is secondary. Atheism addresses that and that alone.”

Ron, you’re being deliberately simplistic because you know you’re wrong. The word “atheism” only deals with the existence of God. Just like “anarchism” only deals with government. You don’t seem to mind attacking Christianity’s implications. You want to separate the two ideas, only for atheism, because you know that you can’t defend the idea of actually living out atheistic beliefs. Just because the word does not lay out all of the implications does not mean you can ignore them as unimportant. And that’s because…

All the rest of it--whether justice is an objective reality or merely a human construct, for instance, is in essence irrelevant (at least from any practical[atheistic] standpoint).”

This is my point, and the reason why so many of your arguments against Christianity are silly. That’s the whole idea behind Pascal’s wager. If atheism is true, then none if it matters anyway. So, why not live a life that’s both rational and meaningful? I can, you can’t. Atheism is a worthless idea, because whether it’s true or not, you can’t actually live as thought it was true. True or not, I can actually live out my beliefs.

”Would there still be meaning to life the day after an asteroid slams into the earth? The correct answer isn't "yes" or "no". The correct answer is "who cares?"”

I suppose so, according to an atheist, so why bring it up? That’d be like me saying, “does it matter what you believe after the Rapture?” No, I guess not, so what’s the point? Mortal life is not the end to a Christian, so your asteroid idea doesn’t mean all that much to me.

”You don't have anything even approaching extraordinary proof.”

This according to a person who wouldn’t believe under any circumstance anyway. There is no such thing as sufficient proof for you, Ron, so why argue that point?

You’re avoiding the fact that you cannot, and do not, actually live out what you believe. So why believe it? You may think what I believe is strange, but I have consistent, rational reasons for those beliefs. And, I actually apply those beliefs. When you get down to brass tacks, Atheists are the biggest hypocrites in the entire theological / philosophical realm; they don’t even try to live according to the most fundamental implications of their worldview.

If you want to continue this, you need to read the posts “Predestination Plinko” and “Hopeless Hypotheses”, since those are exactly the ideas we’re hitting on now. Comment there if you wish.

Ron said...

It’s based on an evidence-and-logic-driven trust in what the Bible says.

You cannot use the Bible to prove the Bible.

So much for the "logical" underpinnings of your worldview.

How can atheism be internally inconsistent? All atheism says is 'There is no God.' And the simple fact is, that statement is either right or wrong, and consistency's got nothing to do with it at all. So when you say that atheism's internally inconsistent, or question atheism's viewpoint of free will, you're playing existential and rhetorical games and little else.
Maybe that's the real reason atheists have little problem living with their worldview?

Besides, how seriously am I supposed to take your critiques of the logical underpinnings of atheism when you believe you're going to fly like a bird one day?

If Atheism is true, it necessarily means some very important things about free will, purpose, and morality. It’s not true or untrue as a result of the implications, of course, but you can’t separate the implications from the idea.

"It's not true or untrue as a result of the implications, of course..."

That's exactly right. God either exists or he doesn't exist. Logically, the implications are "downstream", so to speak.

That’s the whole idea behind Pascal’s wager.

Why are you still pushing that? PW has been falsified not once, but three different ways. You falsified it yourself in your original post!

MedicineMan said...

” You cannot use the Bible to prove the Bible.”

What a foolish and shallow statement. The statement “evidence-and-logic-driven trust in what the Bible says” clearly indicates that my trust in the Bible as a reliable source is based on evidence found outside of the Bible.

” How can atheism be internally inconsistent?”

Atheism is a worldview, hence it can be internally inconsistent. The statement “there is no God” necessarily means certain things about the world, things that atheists do not live out. That’s pretty clear. Saying that atheism, as a worldview, has nothing to do with its own logically necessary implications is the rhetorical game.

” Maybe that's the real reason atheists have little problem living with their worldview?”

Now you’re not even paying attention to the conversation. I’ve stated over and over that atheists don’t live out their worldview. They have little problem? They can’t do it! You haven’t defended the idea, because you can’t. You have told me that you think life is ultimately meaningless, and purposeless. Yet, you don’t live that way. Either admit your irrationality, or enlighten me as to how you can disbelieve in purpose and live as though you do believe.

” Besides, how seriously am I supposed to take your critiques…fly like a bird one day?”

You apparently missed the idea that “strange” and “untrue” are not the same. If I really will fly someday, then my belief in the concept is not incorrect. How seriously am I supposed to take your critiques of anything if you don’t even know how to critique an idea?

”Logically, the implications are "downstream", so to speak.”

First, the implications are downstream, but also necessary. There’s an inescapable connection between atheism and determinism, meaninglessness, and purposelessness. A=
B=C. You can’t ignore B and C just because they make you uncomfortable. They cannot be separated; hence, if you don’t really believe in determinism, meaninglessness, or purposelessness, you can’t rationally believe in Atheism.

Secondly, atheism is self-defeating. If, as you’ve said, it makes no difference what we believe once we die, then you have no argument against the choice to live a Christian life. After death in an atheistic universe, I won’t be any better or worse off than you. Plus, you can’t actually live out what you believe.

”Why are you still pushing that? PW has been falsified not once, but three different ways. You falsified it yourself in your original post!”

I explained PW, gave a better understanding of it, and clearly explained its drawbacks; I didn’t completely obliterate it. Once again, you’re not even paying attention. I didn’t falsify it, because it’s not meant to be a proof of anything. I’m defending it as a rationale to take the question of Atheism vs Christianity seriously, and as a refutation of the idea that Christians have something to lose by choosing God over oblivion. If that’s really that hard for you to get, then just admit that this kind of discussion is over your head.

With that in mind, this discussion is getting off topic at best and pointless at worst. You’re giving me reasons to think that you either don’t understand what we’re talking about, aren’t paying attention, or just aren’t taking this seriously. Either way, you need to read the two posts I recommended and publish any comments relevant to them in the comment sections there.

Anything else posted here will be deleted as off-topic.

MedicineMan said...

(to the reader):

To clarify, anything new on the topic of Pascal's wager, particularly by new posters, would be welcome.

Comments extending the current line of conversation need to be placed in the posts indicated above.

Ron said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
MedicineMan said...

Ron,

I told you I'd delete anything additional off-topic. I've moved your comment to the next appropriate post; you can either comment there or expect further comments to be deleted without re-post.

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